An ideologically based justification for penalties flies in the face of European values and treaties – says Judit Varga, the Hungarian Justice Minister and laureate of the Guardian of Virtues award, in an interview with "Do Rzeczy" weekly
According to the Hungarian Prime Minister "If this regulation drafted by the EP and the German presidency were to be accepted, then we have made Soviet Union out of the EU". Tamás Deutsch MEP warns against EU tyranny taking place of the decades' long communist tyranny. Do you also fear that the EU is making itself akin to the Soviet Union?
Firstly, let's be clear what we are talking about here. After long and heated discussions, European leaders, sitting at one table, worked out an agreement. On November 5th, that agreement was violated in Brussels by leaders, who knew that their actions are tantamount to going back on one's word and were well aware of the consequences.
We laid our cards bare: today we are repeating what we were saying in summer. The Parliament determined a framework, according to which Hungary considered the EU budget and the pandemic induced borrowing to be acceptable – and thus far we have done so.
If a provision linking allocation of EU funds to the rule of law is adopted by a two-thirds majority (whereas issues of such importance require unanimity, and even so, leaders of all 27 member states already came to an agreement in summer), it may be used in future as a tool for political blackmail.
We will truly make a Soviet Union of the EU if we agree for non-conformism with the prevailing ideology to be punished. The communist regime enforced such rules, and Poles were also amongst those fighting to ensure it never comes to pass again. An ideologically based justification for penalties flies in the face of European values and treaties.
There is no consensus on the definition of the rule of law, and as such any EU procedure would be groundless, notwithstanding the fact that EU member states' constitutions are structured differently. Legally speaking such a definition is not possible. However, statements made by some West European countries to the effect that "we are experiencing a fundamental misunderstanding" and "that course of action is burdened by a risk" were reminiscent of communist times. There are no clear cut criteria for the Commission to make a subjective assessment – as was the case for the Commission's rule of law report published in September.
You are talking about the EU attempting to blackmail Hungary and Poland. The most recent efforts of the Hungarian and Polish governments have stopped short of a formal veto, as they were taking place at the Committee of Permanent Representatives level. Do you believe that the EU leaders will finally come around and there will be a last minute approval pf the 2021-2027 budget?
We believe that honest dialogue can resolve problems which have been caused by people. Hungarians support strengthening the financial protection for the EU budget, nonetheless the starting point for any negotiations on the actual allocation should be the European Council's agreement struck in July of this year. Then we could have a successful outcome even tomorrow, without a debate, so that we could help those countries most in need as quickly as possible.
Pointing fingers at Hungary and Poland is easy, even if for no good reason. Unfortunately we have grown used to it recently. And it is not us who are obstructing the functioning of the EU within the scope of determining the budget or the "Next Generation EU" recovery plan. It is those meeting in the corridors and breaking original agreements in the name of their political interests and ideological intentions who are to blame. And that is why they are responsible. They have to look leaders of southern countries in the eye and tell them that this ideological war is more important than helping one another.
If it is true that everyone wants to help countries which are in need, then we will certainly reach an agreement. And if it is not true, then we have a long winter ahead of us.
Budapest and Warsaw are the only two left on the battlefield. Would it not be simpler to stop resisting, accept small groups of migrants, so that the money from the support package could reach those in need as quickly as possible and without all this palaver?
The economies of both Poland and Hungary are stable. And we have worked hard to achieve this. We do not need to support the package. If need be, we can always look to the market for attractive loans.
However, there is a simpler way. It would be much easier to practice politics without constant attacks from global liberal media outlets, without stopping because of analyses, lists or classifications drawn up by non-governmental organisations whose financing is dubious, to say the least.
Poles and Hungarians have already made their views on illegal immigration, multi-cultural and open society issues clear. We want to be able to decide by ourselves who we are going to live with and we would not want some central mechanism deciding who are neighbours are going to be. We desire to safeguard our culture, our traditions and faith and at the same time help immigrants and those in need, making full use of the means prescribed for such ends by our legislature. Furthermore, as part of the Hungary Helps Programme, we are helping people in many countries which are a source of mass migration.
Using the rule of law label to undermine issues of importance is a carefully constructed political weapon, which may be used at any time against any country. A discussion on the diversity of the media, the effectiveness or independence of various legal institutions is always worthwhile. However, if such debates are taking place in the form of controversial issues occupying the front pages of global liberal media and the agendas of non-governmental organisations, whose financing is all but clear, then the average Joe may truly believe that the real problem is not terrorism, illegal immigration or economic invigoration. But rather, as some would have you believe, the diversity of Hungarian and Polish media.
Swedish politicians went a step further in their staunch criticism of Budapest and Warsaw by suggesting that a debate should begin in the EU on whether Hungary and Poland are to remain part of the Community. Have Hunexit and Polexit suddenly become that much more real?
There is more. German public television showed the EU flag with the star symbolising Poland and Hungary cut out and we were referred to as fools. But don't let this fool anybody. It is all part of putting pressure on us. The party which is running out of logical arguments and reasons is always the more aggressive.
The fact that György Soros is now issuing his instructions openly, without bothering to discuss the future of Europe with its leaders behind closed doors, is a lucky turn of events. This means it is clear to see who follows those instructions.
Luckily the European Union is still governed by clear legal regulations stemming from the treaties we signed. Naturally one can fantasise and nothing is beyond imagination, but the law protects us all within the scope of these processes. Arriving at a solution which contravenes European law and flies in the face of treaties will results in the EU functioning under entirely new circumstances.
On the other hand Polish and Hungarian politicians, such as Ryszard Czarnecki or Tamás Deutsch, are saying, and increasingly more often, that the EU is not what it used to be and are not hiding their disappointment with the German presidency. They are not only referring to immigration policy solutions but also left-wing cultural values. In December of last year, analysts at the Danish Saxo Bank published forecasts according to which Hungary may soon leave the European Union as well. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider scenarios where Hungary and Poland leave the EU, for example within the scope of tightening the alliance with the Three Seas countries?
When we acceded to the European Union 16 years ago, we adopted certain binding frameworks set forth in treaties, frameworks which clearly define which issues are part of community sovereignty and which fall within the scope of national sovereignty. For example family and immigration policies as well as our attitude to faith and religion are not defined in Brussels for us. Only Hungarians can make those decisions.
However, today we see that as we are unable to reach an agreement when it comes to those issues (for example we are unwilling to accept more immigrants), various attempts are being made to force us to do it in breach of treaties. And, as I have already mentioned, the set of conditions as it is today, ties the allocation of EU funds to the rule of law and provides a means to force certain countries to change their positions for purely ideological reasons sidestepping the legal certainty principle. Today we are one of those countries, tomorrow it could be another member state.
Despite that, Hungary is a staunchly pro-European country. For centuries we have been proving that we belong here. We are also not blind to the fact that Central Eastern Europe and the Baltic region are growing fast. In many respects this area is taking over as the driving force behind European growth. And the alliances you mentioned have certainly played their part. That is why we are so keen to maintain close relationships – regardless of international policies pursued at the moment.
LGBT ideology has already triumphed in the West. Do you still believe that Hungary and Poland will be able to continue protecting Christian values?
That issue is shaping up to become one of the most important questions of the future. Can homogenous ideological principles be imposed upon member states? Will a system prevail where blackmail subject to an implied threat associated with the allocation of funds is allowed, one which will smother cultural, political and ideological diversity and in the eyes of which the global liberalism idea is to dominate the EU? Surprisingly Europe is not focused on rebuilding its economic might or strengthening its global role. Neither is it busy helping the ordinary people in their struggle with everyday lives. For some reason it is set on transforming the EU into an ideologically homogenous body. Luckily we are also part of the EU, and have the means to steer those processes from the inside and resist the homogenising attempts.
"The mother is a woman, the father is a man" – you would like that statement to be added to the Hungarian constitution. If adopted, it will undoubtedly be the cause of another storm in Brussels. As a woman, a mother and laureate of the Guardian of Virtues award, do you not find it strange that such statements have to be formulated at all?
The proposed amendment of the Hungarian constitution spells out something which is obvious. Hungary does and will continue to recognise same sex partnerships. The planned amendment will not change that. It clearly states that certain biological facts pre-determine parenthood. Every human was born of a female mother and a male father. It is a strange world we live in if one can be criticised for proclaiming obvious facts.
Feminists in Poland are trying to convince women to abandon traditional roles and to focus on their careers. The Istanbul Convention blames tradition for violence against women. What is your opinion on the roles of women in contemporary Europe? Do all women really have to be career minded, or should governments allow those women who wish to focus on raising children to continue in their traditional roles?
As a mother of three children, a wife, a working woman and a minister I can say that today's contemporary woman has innumerable ways to achieve fulfilment and happiness, regardless of how she wants to live her life. And I thank God for it. Even though today representatives of the "fairer sex" can enjoy brilliant careers, in my opinion, motherhood is the most magnificent life task that no woman should miss out on. I believe that everyone can develop their talents as best as they can – regardless of whether they are male or female. But I also believe in the strength of family, the pillar of our society. These two very important areas should be coordinated, despite requiring numerous logistical solutions to be put in place.
Author: Jacek Przybylski